'Tmp06'
Index links to: Lead / Letter TEMPORARY FILE
NORMAL DISCLAIMER : This page is still being researched. It has NOT yet been launched formally into the Database but is shown here TEMPORARILY (albeit for an uncertain length of time pending further research), partly to record connections that we fear we might otherwise lose sight of and partly in the hope that one or more visitors to the site will contribute information that will enable us to develop our information on the families covered in this page to a standard that would support release of a dedicated page in the Database.
ADDITIONAL NOTE FROM PCBG (04.07.15) : This is the first time I have done a page like this but, after placing two sections into Tmp05 pending further investigation into another family that was connected by marriage - that with branches named either de Plugenet or de la Bere - I found that the investigation raised almost as many questions as it answered. This left me wondering how best to deal with these families. Normally in such situations, because I do not have the time or resources to spend too much time on any one family (especially when looking at such early generations), I would simply record what I thought was worth recording and move on to another family. This time, however, I have a personal interest because Kilpeck, which moved between the families involved (although it was not the subject of any of the legal actions mentioned below), is close to where I live and is a favoured place for taking our visitors to. [There is little left of the castle but the church is certainly worth a visit (see here).] This page is dedicated to researching the connections - but, as expected, I am not the first to look at this. An online article entitled 'Greed, Lies & the Walerond Inheritance' (see here) and an archived page within RootsWeb (see here) might be useful to anyone interested in these matters.
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| I start with the non-controversial pedigree for the post-Conquest owners of Kilpeck (which is anciently spelt Kilpec or Kilpek). This comes from the article on Kilpec in 'Dormant and Extinct Baronage of England' (T.C. Banks, vol 1, 1807, p102+) and 'The Topographer and Genealogist' (vol 1, 1846, p29+). It was first shown within Tmp05 on 02.07.15. | |||||||||||||||
| William of Kilpec ("a Norman") | |||||||||||||||
| 1. | Hugh of Kilpec succeeded by ... | ||||||||||||||
| A. | Henry de Kilpec of Kilpec Castle, Herefordshire (a 1124) succeeded by ... | ||||||||||||||
| i. | John de Kilpec | ||||||||||||||
| a. | Hugh de Kilpec of Kilpec (Kilpek of Kilpek or Kilpeck of Kilpeck) Castle (d c1207) | ||||||||||||||
| m. Egidia (m2. William Fitzwarine) | |||||||||||||||
| (1) | Isabella de Kilpec | ||||||||||||||
| Banks names Isabel's husband as Robert Waleran or Walrond (dsp) but the article in 'The Topographer and Genealogist' indicates that this is probably following a mistake by Dugdale as Isabella's husband was ... | |||||||||||||||
| m. William Waleran or Walerand of Kilpeck Castle @1@ below | |||||||||||||||
| (2) | Joan de Kilpec | ||||||||||||||
| m. (1243-4) Sir Philip de Marmion (d by 1292) | |||||||||||||||
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| Before showing the speculative pedigree that I think worth postulating, I next show what I uploaded to Tmp05 on 02.07.15. I now show it in italics, and have disconnected the links (re-given below), to avoid confusion for it has been superseded below by another section. It was (as shown) with 2 lines sharing one section, something that I have done elsewhere albeit only rarely. The sources were identified as 'Pedigrees from the Plea Rolls (1200-1500)' (Maj. Gen. Hon. George Wrottesley, 1904?, p86 & p536) and 'The Topographer and Genealogist' (vol 1, 1846, p30). | |||||||||||||||
| 'The Topographer and Genealogist' reports that Dugdale shows some confusion with familes named Waleran or Walrand or Walerand. 'Pedigrees from the Plea Rolls' add yet more confusion (to us, at least) because Wrottesley is reporting on 2 different cases - one in 5E2 (1311-2, p535+) and the other in 37E3 (1363-4, p85+) - in both of which pedigrees are supported which suggest that that Plukenet (and de la Bere) family was connected to another family of simliar name even though 'The Topographer and Genealogist' indicates that they were not. ["There is no evidence of consanguinity between Walter Waleran, the husband of Isbaella de Longespee, and William the husband of Isabella de Kilpek; neither can any relationship be established between them and the Walerands of Berkshire and Wiltshire".] The first one comes mainly from 'The Topographer and Genealogist' but with some details from 'Pedigrees from the Plea Rolls'. | |||||||||||||||
| William Waleran or Walerand, later of Kilpeck Castle (a 1256) | |||||||||||||||
| m. Isabella de Kilpek (dau/coheir of Hugh de Kilpek of Kilpek) link was made to "@@ just above", now made to @1@ below | |||||||||||||||
| 1. | Robert Walerand of Kilpeck, Sheriff of Gloucester (dsp by 1272) | ||||||||||||||
| m. Matilda Russel (dau of Ralph Russel of Dyrham) | |||||||||||||||
| 2. | William Walerand | ||||||||||||||
| A.+ | issue - Robert (b c1255), John (d by 1309) | ||||||||||||||
| 3. | Alice Walerand (2nd of the name) | ||||||||||||||
| m. Andrew de la Bere | |||||||||||||||
| 4.+ | other issue (dsp) - John, Isabella, Alice (Abbess of Romsey), Cecilia, Matilda | ||||||||||||||
| The names of John, Isabella, Cecilia & Matilda were shown in italics when this section was shown within Tmp05. | |||||||||||||||
| The 'other' of the Waleran/Walrand families is given only in 'Pedigrees from the Plea Rolls' and appears to start with 2 brothers, whom we show as sons of ... | |||||||||||||||
| ?? Walrand or Waleran | |||||||||||||||
| 1. | Herbert Walrand | ||||||||||||||
| A. | William Walrand | ||||||||||||||
| (1) Note the cause of confusion (here & just above) between the 2 Williams, both being father of John (dsp) + Cecilia and brother of Alice who married A. Plukenet/de la Bere, which were names of different branches of the same family. (2) The Plea Rolls pedigrees show William's daughter Cecilia as mother (by an unnamed father) of 3 daughters, the youngest being "Alice de Everingham". The Everingham records suggest that this was probably Sir William Walerand of Longford. |
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| i. | John Walrand (dsp by 1312) | ||||||||||||||
| ii. | Cecilia Walrand whose husband was probably ... | ||||||||||||||
| m. Robert de la Hyde probably father of Alice, possibly also of ... | |||||||||||||||
| a. | Joan | ||||||||||||||
| m. Bogo (Bevis) de Knovill (son of John de Knovill) | |||||||||||||||
| b. | Cecilia | ||||||||||||||
| (1) | Matilda | ||||||||||||||
| m. Richard le Brett | |||||||||||||||
| (2) | Cecilia | ||||||||||||||
| m. Peter de Helion | |||||||||||||||
| c. | Alice de la Hyde | ||||||||||||||
| m1. (by 1271) Sir Robert de Everingham (d before 21.07.1287) link was made to Everingham1, now made below | |||||||||||||||
| m2. Sir Thomas de Normanville | |||||||||||||||
| B. | Alice Walrand | ||||||||||||||
| m. Alan Plukenet | |||||||||||||||
| Left out from what was uploaded on 02.07.15, as it was assumed that it would be shown in later work on the Plukenet family, was that the sons of this marriage were Alan (father of Alan & John, both dsp) & Robert, father of Richard father of Richard father of Richard father of "Thomas de la Bere, the defendant". The plaintiffs were shown (on p86 of 'Pedigrees from the Plea Rolls') as the undermentioned Miles de Stapleton ("under age", son of the below-mentioned Joan & Miles) & Laurence de St. Martin. | |||||||||||||||
| 2. | Walter Waleran (d c1200) | ||||||||||||||
| m. Isabella (or Margaret) de Longespee (dau of William Longespee, grandson of William, Earl of Surrey (who m. Ela)) link was made to Plantagenet4, now made below | |||||||||||||||
| A. | Cecilia (dsp) | ||||||||||||||
| B. | Albreda | ||||||||||||||
| i. | Walter | ||||||||||||||
| a. | Oliver | ||||||||||||||
| (1) | John | ||||||||||||||
| (A) | Joan | ||||||||||||||
| m. Miles de Stapleton possible link to Stapleton01 was made here, now made below | |||||||||||||||
| C. | Isabella | ||||||||||||||
| i. | Joan | ||||||||||||||
| a. | William | ||||||||||||||
| (1) | Reginald | ||||||||||||||
| (A) | Laurence | ||||||||||||||
| (i) | Laurence de St. Martin (a 1364?) | ||||||||||||||
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| (1) That we should work further on the above became apparent when we looked into the Plugenet and de la Bere families. The reference to Isabel in the next subparagraph is to Isabel Berkeley who m1. Thomas de Rocheford, m2. William Wallerand. It is strange that she was not mentioned in either of the sources used for the above first attempt on the Walerand family. (2) TCP (Plugenet) contains a long note which contains (inter alia) reference to the fact that "the close association between the 1st Lord Plugenet (Isabel's grandson by her daughter Alice de Rochford) and Robert Walerand (eldest son of Isabel's 2nd marriage), enabled Lord Plugenet's son in 1309 to seize from the rightful heirs the estates of Isabel's last Walerand grandson by her 2nd marriage, on the pretence that his grand-mother Alice was not Alice de Rocheford, but a daughter - and the only daughter - of the Walerand marriage. Had Alan de Plugenet been, as was so prominently and, if true, needlessly asserted in 1309, of the whole blood - i.e. had Alice, wife of Alan de Plugenet in 1230, been a da. of William Walerand - Richard de la Bere would not have sued them to recoved land in Kilmeston. On the death of Joan, sister and heir of the 2nd Lord Plugenet, a simlar fraud was practised by the Richard d la Bere of that day; for he succeeded in a claim to the estates as descended from a younger son of Andrew de la Bere and Alice de Rocheford, asserting that their eldest son was Alan de Plugenet (1st Lord Plugenet)." It appears that these 2 'frauds' were what led to the 2 cases/pleas reported above. (3) To facilitate some sort of a resolution of all this, and to highlight a probable mistake within TCP (which otherwise I shall rely on), I next show the issue of Josce de Dinan. It is not known how (if at all) he was connected to the family shown on Dinham1. |
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| Josce de Dinan | |||||||||||||||
| 1. | Sibyl de Dinan (d before 29.11.1233, coheir) mentioned in TCP (Plugenet) | ||||||||||||||
| TCP (Plugenet) appears to suggest that Sibyl's mother was the Isabel who m2. Sir William Walerand. That appears to be an error. | |||||||||||||||
| m1. Hugh de Plugenet of Headington & Lambourn (a 1142, d by 1200) @2@ below | |||||||||||||||
| m2. Andrew de la Bere | |||||||||||||||
| This marriage is reported in the 'Greed, Lies & the Walerond Inheritance' article mentioned at the top of the page. TCP (Plugenet) reports that Sibyl's son & heir was was ... | |||||||||||||||
| A. | Richard de la Bere | ||||||||||||||
| 2. | Hawise de Dinan (coheir) mentioned in TCP ('Fitzwarin') | ||||||||||||||
| m. Sir Fulk FitzWarin of Whittington (a 11.1194) | |||||||||||||||
| 3. | daughter mentioned in the 'Greed, Lies & the Walerond Inheritance' article mentioned at the top of the page | ||||||||||||||
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| I next show the issue of the first marriage of Isabella de Berkeley. The following comes from TCP (vol X, 'Plugenet', p552). | |||||||||||||||
| Thomas de Rocheford (de Rochefort) | |||||||||||||||
| m. Isabella de Berkeley (dau of Roger de Berkeley of Dursley (who d 1191), she m2. William Walerand) | |||||||||||||||
| 1. | Alice de Rocheford ('heir') | ||||||||||||||
| m1. Alan de Plugenet @3@ below | |||||||||||||||
| m2. John de Eddeworth | |||||||||||||||
| This 2nd marriage, to John, is mentioned in the 'Greed, Lies & the Walerond Inheritance' article mentioned at the top of the page. That article is not wholly correct. It suggests (for example) that Isabella de Berkeley's marriage to Thomas de Rocheford was her 3rd marriage whereas TCP (Plugenet) and other sources suggests that he was her 1st husband. It also mentions a sister for Alice, Cecily who married John de Everingham. However, as pointed out in the RootsWeb article also mentioned at the top of the page, the (only direct?) connection with the Everingham family is believed to be very different (see below - which is supported by 'Pedigrees from the Plea Rolls', p536) . | |||||||||||||||
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| I next have a go at the Plugenet family. The following comes from TCP (vol X, 'Plugenet', p552+). | |||||||||||||||
| Hugh de Plugenet of Headington (Oxfordshire) & Lambourn (Berkshire) (a 1142, d by 1200) | |||||||||||||||
| m. Sibyl (d before 29.11.1233, dau/coheir of Josce de Dinan, aunt of Fulk FitzWarin who a 1230) @2@ above | |||||||||||||||
| 1. | Alan de Plugenet (dvpsp) | ||||||||||||||
| m. Clemence | |||||||||||||||
| 2. | Josce de Plugenet of Lambourn (d by 12.1230) | ||||||||||||||
| BE1883 ('Plugenet') mentions Alan & Josceus "To one of whom succeeded Sir Alan de Plugenet, Lord of Kilpec who ... obtained a grant from his maternal uncle, Robert Walrond". TCP shows that Alan dvpsp and that it was Josce who was father of ... | |||||||||||||||
| A. | William de Plugenet | ||||||||||||||
| TCP identifies William as son & successor to Josce but does not mention whether or not he had issue. | |||||||||||||||
| TCP reports of the following Alan that "His paternal descent is unproved" but reports that Josce probably had younger sons, Alan & Robert, with that Alan (who "was serving abroad in 1230 under Fulk FitzWarin") possibly being the father of the 1st Lord. HOWEVER, 'The Topographer and Genealogist' (vol 1, 1846, p30) identifies the parents of the 1st Lord as Andrew de la Bere and Isabella, dau of William Waleran or Walerand by Isabella, dau of Hugh de Kilpeck. It appears that there has been confusion between Isabella Waleran and Isabella Berkeley. | |||||||||||||||
| B. | Alan de Plugenet | ||||||||||||||
| m. Alice de Rochford (dau/heir of Thomas de Rocheford by Isabel (who m2. William Wallerand), dau of Roger de Berkeley of Dursley) @3@ above | |||||||||||||||
| i. | Alan de Plugenet (of Kilpeck), 1st Lord (d before 25.12.1298) | ||||||||||||||
| TCP mentions that Alan "was early associated with his uncle (of the half-blood) Robert Walerand who gave him land in Wilts, and the castle and manor of Kilpeck, co. Hereford". TCP notes that the land in Wiltshire involved Longford, Whaddon & Harnham and that Robert Walerand "had bought (Kilpeck) from his br. William, husband of the elder da. and coh. of Hugh de Kilpek". | |||||||||||||||
| m. Joan Wake (d before 06.1315, dau of Andrew Wake of Dowlish Wake) | |||||||||||||||
| a. | Alan de Plugenet, 2nd Lord (b c1276, dsp before 06.09.1325) | ||||||||||||||
| m. (by 1295) Sibyl (d 14.02.1352/3, m2. Henry de Pembridge) | |||||||||||||||
| b. | Joan de Plugenet (dsp before 18.12.1327) | ||||||||||||||
| m1. Thomas Corbet (dvpsp before 11.11.1295, son/heir of Piers, 1st Lord Corbet) | |||||||||||||||
| m2. Henry de Bohun (d 1315, son/heir of Sir John de Bohun of Haresfield, son (by 2nd marriage) of Humphrey, Earl of Hereford) | |||||||||||||||
| ii. | Richard de la Bere | ||||||||||||||
| Richard is shown here by 'The Topographer and Genealogist' as father of Richard father of Richard (d by 1347) father (by Claricia) of 4 sons, 3 of whom dsp (Richard, John & Edmund) and the other being Thomas (b c1324) who was the claimant in one of the cases referred to above. This appears to be following Dugdale who apparently accepted the (allegedly fraudulent) pedigree put forward to support a claim for (some of) the de Plugenet family's lands. | |||||||||||||||
| C. | Robert de Plugenet | ||||||||||||||
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| I now suggest, somewhat speculatively, a pedigree which attempts to pull together the above information. Given the contradictions & confusions reported above, it should be viewed with some caution. | |||||||||||||||
| ?? Walrand or Waleran | |||||||||||||||
| 1. | Herbert Walrand | ||||||||||||||
| A. | Sir William Waleran or Walerand of Kilpeck Castle | ||||||||||||||
| I am taking the view that William probably married twice, as follows. This is not wholly satisfactory but it could be part of the reason why there has been confusion as to the identity of William's wife/wives. | |||||||||||||||
| m1/2. Isabella de Kilpec (dau/coheir of Hugh de Kilpec of Kilpec) @1@ above | |||||||||||||||
| m2/1. Isabella de Berkeley (dau of Roger de Berkeley of Dursley, widow of Thomas de Rocheford) | |||||||||||||||
| TCP (Plugenet) mentions that Isabella de Berkeley's eldest son of her 2nd marriage was a Robert. We assume that this was the following Robert. Although the words "eldest son" were used, it is by no means certain that this Isabella was mother of the other children. | |||||||||||||||
| i. | Robert Walerand of Kilpeck, Sheriff of Gloucester (dsp by 1272) | ||||||||||||||
| m. Matilda Russel (dau of Ralph Russel of Dyrham) | |||||||||||||||
| ii. | William Walerand | ||||||||||||||
| a. | Robert Walerand of Kilpeck (b c1255, dsp) | ||||||||||||||
| b. | John Walerand of Kilpeck (dsp by 1309) | ||||||||||||||
| iii. | Cecilia Walrand | ||||||||||||||
| m. Robert de la Hyde father of Alice, possibly also of ... | |||||||||||||||
| a. | Joan | ||||||||||||||
| m. Bogo (Bevis) de Knovill (son of John de Knovill) | |||||||||||||||
| b. | Cecilia | ||||||||||||||
| (1) | Matilda | ||||||||||||||
| m. Richard le Brett | |||||||||||||||
| (2) | Cecilia | ||||||||||||||
| m. Peter de Helion | |||||||||||||||
| c. | Alice de la Hyde | ||||||||||||||
| m1. (by 1271) Sir Robert de Everingham (d before 21.07.1287) | |||||||||||||||
| m2. Sir Thomas de Normanville | |||||||||||||||
| iv. | Alice Walrand (2nd of the name) | ||||||||||||||
| m. Andrew de la Bere | |||||||||||||||
| v.+ | other issue (dsp) - John, Isabella, Alice (Abbess of Romsey), Matilda | ||||||||||||||
| B. | Alice Walrand | ||||||||||||||
| It appears that the pedigree (on p86 of 'Pedigrees from the Plea Rolls') which shows this Alice as the wife of Alan Plukenet was fradulent. | |||||||||||||||
| I leave the following, which comes from 'Pedigrees from the Plea Rolls (1200-1500)' (Maj. Gen. Hon. George Wrottesley, 1904?, p86), in italics because it has since been superseded by the section just below. It has (temporarily) been left here just to show how different sources can show similar but subtly different things. Possibly uncle of Sir William Waleran was ... | |||||||||||||||
| 2. | Walter Waleran (d c1200) | ||||||||||||||
| m. Isabella (or Margaret) de Longespee (dau of William Longespee, grandson of William, Earl of Surrey (who m. Ela)) | |||||||||||||||
| A. | Cecilia (dsp) | ||||||||||||||
| B. | Albreda | ||||||||||||||
| i. | Walter | ||||||||||||||
| a. | Oliver | ||||||||||||||
| (1) | John | ||||||||||||||
| (A) | Joan | ||||||||||||||
| m. Miles de Stapleton (a 1364?) ## possibly here? ## | |||||||||||||||
| C. | Isabella | ||||||||||||||
| i. | Joan | ||||||||||||||
| a. | William | ||||||||||||||
| (1) | Reginald | ||||||||||||||
| (A) | Laurence | ||||||||||||||
| (i) | Laurence de St. Martin (a 1364?) | ||||||||||||||
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| The following was added on 13.05.24, the source being 'Wilts' (vol 2 (1825), p10/23). It clearly covers the family shown immediately above. | |||||||||||||||
| Walter Waleran of Grimsted (d 1200) | |||||||||||||||
| m. Isabel (dau of William, son of Edward, Earl of Salisbury) | |||||||||||||||
| 1. | Cicely Waleran | ||||||||||||||
| m. Sir John de Monemue or Monmouth | |||||||||||||||
| A. | Sir John de Monemue (d 1280-1) | ||||||||||||||
| 2. | Albreda Waleran | ||||||||||||||
| m1. Sir John de Ingham (d 1203-4) | |||||||||||||||
| m2. William de Boterell | |||||||||||||||
| 3. | Isabel Waleran | ||||||||||||||
| m. Sir William de Neville | |||||||||||||||
| A. | Joane de Neville (sole heiress) | ||||||||||||||
| m. Jordan St. Martin | |||||||||||||||
| i. | William St. Martin (d 1281-2) | ||||||||||||||
| a. | Sir Reginald St. Martin (dsp 1314-5) | ||||||||||||||
| m. Emma Plagenet (dauu of Alan Plagenet) | |||||||||||||||
| b. | Sir Laurence St. Martin (dsp 1318-9) | ||||||||||||||
| m. Sibilla Lorey (dau of Sir John Lorey of Axford) | |||||||||||||||
| (1) | Laurence St. Martin (dsp) | ||||||||||||||
| (2) | Sibell St. Martin | ||||||||||||||
| m. Sir J(ohn) Popham of Popham | |||||||||||||||
| (3) | Joane St. Martin | ||||||||||||||
| m. Roger Calston of Littlecote | |||||||||||||||
Main source(s): as reported above
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